Finding Balance for Work-Life Harmony Featuring Zahira Marmar, Hrbvor

Intro 0:05 

Welcome to the Gooder Podcast where we talk with powerhouse women in CPG about their journeys to success. This episode is sponsored by Retail Voodoo, a brand development firm guiding mission-driven consumer brands to attract new and passionate consumer base crushed their categories through growth and innovation and magnify their social and environmental impact. If your brand is in need of brand positioning, package design or marketing activation, we are here to help. You can find more information at www.retail-voodoo.com.

Diana Fryc 0:43 

Hi, Diana Fryc here I am the host of the Gooder Podcast where I get to talk with a powerhouse women in the food, beverage and wellness categories about their journeys to success and their insights on the industry. This episode is brought to you by Retail Voodoo. We are a brand development firm providing strategic brand and design services for brands in the food wellness and beverage industries. Our clients include Starbucks Kind, Rei, PepsiCo, Highkey and many other market leaders. So if your goal is to crush your competition by driving growth, and disrupting the marketplace with new and innovative ideas, give us a call and let’s talk or you can check us out at retail-voodoo.com. Well Today, my guest is Zahira Marmar, wife, mother of three and founder and chief Brewer of Hrbvor Herbal Teas. Zahira is on a mission to share the protective health benefits of herbal tea with families everywhere. She is a professional gardener and previously the owner of St Maarten Garden Artists, where she designed and maintained organic vegetable and herb gardens for private clients that sounds amazing schools and resorts. Zahira has a BA in sociology, and you’re gonna have to tell me what an MSc is?

Zahira Marmar 2:05 

It’s a master’s in science.

Diana Fryc 2:08 

Okay, so she has a BA in sociology and a master’s in community regeneration. I love that. But before I welcome Zahira, I want to give a big high-five shout-out to her husband Dan, who reached out to me and said, this woman needs to be interviewed for your podcast. So Dan, thank you very much. Thank you for being a supporter of not just your wife but women in CPG. Hello, Zahira how are you? Where are you? Where are you located today?

Zahira Marmar 2:42 

Hi, Diana. I just want to start by saying thank you so much for having me on this show. I went through quite a few of the previous shows episodes and this is such an amazing resource for women in business. So thank you so much for having the show. And also having me on the show. Today I’m here with you from New Jersey which is the Garden State.

Diana Fryc 3:14 

Oh It sure is. Yeah. How appropriate. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, tell us a little bit about Hrbvor. What is Hrbvor and what is the brand stand for?

Zahira Marmar 3:30 

So Hrbvor is my herbal tea company. We make herbal teas and different formats and it’s really formulated to nourish and protect our health.

Diana Fryc 3:43

Great and then tell me, we had such a wonderful conversation yesterday. And the backstory of how this brand came about. Can you tell us not just me how this brand came about and why you decided to create it?

Zahira Marmar 4:00

Yeah, sure. So Hrbvor really was born in New Jersey, but it came out of the inspiration of my childhood. In St Maarten in the Caribbean. Drinking tea, herbal tea, bush tea as we call it was really such an essential part of our life, my life as a child. And I remember growing up and my mom sending me out to the garden in the morning to pick whatever bush whatever herbs were kind of needed for that day’s tea. And so I grew up around tea. I grew up with tea, tea in the morning tea during the day. Tea for ailments, tea for enjoyment, teas as a way of life. And when we had our children, it was very, very important to me to continue that tea culture with our children in our family so that our children also grow up with tea as I did. And so that is really the origin story of Hrbvor.

Diana Fryc 5:17

Well, I remember you talking about that this is not just your family’s culture that, this is the culture of island life like everybody in the Caribbean drinks tea, this is like a water beverage for lack of a better thing. When you talk about going out and getting the herbs that you needed for the day, because that’s something that your mom said, Zahira, please go get me what you can find? Or were these plants that were in the back yard did you go out into the wild or it’s a combination of both?

Zahira Marmar 5:53

Actually, it’s more in our backyard. So in the Caribbean, almost all families are household there’s some bush tea, or some herbs that are growing in the garden, whether in the ground or in pots if there’s no space in the ground, that are kind of designated for tea. For me, I grew up in the hills in St Maarten. So I also had the benefit of having a lot of space around me in our garden and home in St Maarten as well as the hills where, I would say a lot of herbs that I came to know of later their names like metal like singing metal, and planting all of these herbs kind of grew wild in the hills. And yes, they did. So we would go and forage some of those herbs to combine them with herbs, like lemongrass and passionflower. And our sub leaves Moringa. I mean, all of these amazing herbs in growing in our garden, Basil times bitter melon, alo, I can go on and on. And each of these herbs I knew them. Some of them not by their names, but I knew them for the function. And I was sent out to get them for like, if we had like a little bit of a fever or someone who’s running a fever, we would be sent for lemongrass. If my mom needed us to go to sleep mainly, the wind-down tea for the passionflower and soursop leaves and some basil, that’s what we have. If you have a cough for sure you know you are going out for time. I was that I knew growing up the time was for call. So that’s kind of how I grew up in St Maarten. I see herbs around me. And knowing the benefits of the herbs and sometimes not knowing the name of the herbs later on. But knowing that herbs were truly medicinal and they actually worked.

Diana Fryc 8:19

I suspect, when you were we just a little one, I suspect that you probably knew what was going on in the household by what your mother asked you to go pick up.

Zahira Marmar 8:31

Pretty much. Pretty much and I’m the eldest of three, I have a younger brother and sister. And I’m probably the only one who really, really likes like to get down and dirty into plants and so I was always the one planting with my mom, going out and foraging. I was mostly the one that she sent out because I was looking for every opportunity to really be in contact and connection with the earth. That was just such a big part of who I was, thankfully and it’s really kind of shaped me into who I am today. So yes, I was usually the one going out into the garden and picking the bush according to what we needed. Even for facials themes for herbal baths, there were herbs for everything. And for everything, there’s an herb and we were sent out to the garden for the ones that we had. And for the ones that we didn’t have, we’d go down to my aunt’s or to someone else in the community and people get herbs there for I mean, that.

Diana Fryc 9:47

That’s so interesting. My parents are immigrants, anybody who’s listened to a few episodes may have already known this. My parents were immigrants, but me and my siblings were born here in the United States and one of the things that as kids, we were kids in the 70s and 80s and at the time, the US culture was not as open to foreign influence. And so my parents would have all sorts of herbal whatever. Sometimes mostly for relaxation or just for general enjoyment, but if there was some sort of health issue in the house, we would have those. And we would as kids, we didn’t want them because they weren’t American, we were different and weird at the time. Now, we live in a culture that is far more embracing especially of food and beverages and those types of things. So I can only imagine, and the reason why I bring this up, I guess, is that even still, while the American palate has changed and really open to food and beverages, I think tea is still a strange beast in the United States. I think most Americans see it as either very British and colonial or East Indian, but with a very heavily British colonial influence or Chinese. I mean, Asian, yes, but mostly Chinese from a green tea. And I feel like, there’s so much missing from the enjoyment of tea. Now, I believe, when we were talking yesterday, you spoke a little bit about tea cultural, in general in the Caribbean is much different than here in the United States. And that’s part of what inspired this brand, am I right?

Zahira Marmar 11:41

Absolutely. And I’m so glad that you brought that up Diana because even within the Caribbean, today, and even back when I was a child, I think more so today, or probably back then when I was a child more so because now things are coming full circle, that the younger generations, they want to know, the things that were either kept from them or the things that used to be that part now and they didn’t want to be told that this is not for you, they wanted to kind of discover it for themselves. So, growing up, I have to say, in the Caribbean, I would almost say that in general, I always had the feeling that herbal medicine or herbs for health and wellness was almost kind of demonized or like it was not such a good thing, something that you should kind of do like under the table hush, hush because it’s not conventional medicine. In the Caribbean, we looked up so much to the Western world and to America’s, almost like we wanted to be in their good graces and be like a well country. So, the medicine or the medicinal path of our folk or folk medicine was almost demonized or just like, harsh. And that’s really unfortunate, because I have to say that so much of the knowledge that could have been passed on through the generations was lost. That oral kind of tradition of how you prepare these herbs and to the level of what their needs are. A lot of that was lost because it was not seen as a good thing as something right. So I think we’ve lost in the Caribbean, certainly in St. Maarten a lot of the oral tradition around preparation of herbs. A preparation of herbs for medicinal use, obviously of some of it, cats, I’m so grateful to my mother and my grandmother on my father’s side, my father from Guyana, my mom, she’s from St. Maarten, her people from St Maarten, but she also has to some her mom is Dominican. And so we have a lot of character influences within our family. I’m so grateful for the elders within my life that were able to really pass on some of that oral tradition that remained that they were able to latch onto from their parents and their parent’s parent. Yeah. That I was able to use now and also to pass to my children. In future generations, I’m just on the level of like names I can say, a difference in America, or one thing that I learned is like, the names of herbs are different everywhere, even different Caribbean islands call a certain herbal, a different name. There’s some similarities. But the name, it’s called in a different way. And it’s only when I moved to America, and I tried to find some of our herbs and I’m putting in the name in the computer, and I just cannot find it under the name that I knew them by, that I really started to get to know the, I would say the legal or the medicinal the name to the herbs, that I’ll be able to access those herbs everywhere in the world. So yeah, it’s very different how I grew up with herbs and herbal tea as medicine or for health and wellness and enjoyment. I’m sure everyone who knows tea can tell you that, there’s some herbs that are really bitter, and the bitterness serves a purpose. So it may not be nice to taste but trip. Fortunately, my outlook and tea, especially because tea started with my children is that it has to taste good. If it doesn’t taste good, people are probably not going to want to take it and you’re going to have a lot of resistance. My aim and my ambition is to make healthy teas that are good for you that taste amazing. And I think I’ve been able to achieve that.

Diana Fryc 17:03

That’s awesome. Well, yeah. And you were telling me stories of sending beverages sending these teas in your children’s lunches.

Zahira Marmar 17:15 

Yeah. So when we moved to New Jersey, from St. Martin, I was kind of faced with this fact that there not many options for healthy drinks in the in the grocery aisles. And in addition to that, tea was like not a thing. Herbal teas was like not, you could not find that in the grocery stores. And growing up how I did and at the time, like my children like they drank a lot of tea and they still do. So even making the transition from a Caribbean lifestyle to an American lifestyle, which now they’re kind of straddling both. For them, it was important as it was important for me that they still have that tea. So I made tea every night for our children. And I put it in the kind of small up-cycled water bottles and I would send them each school with a tea that was good for them kind of like what my mom did, but in a different way. They weren’t going out and picking the herbs because here in New Jersey, it’s not a climate that’s conducive to a year-round growth of herbs, the herbs that I grew up with. So I had to have sourced herbs from different places. But yeah, so I would send my son, he had really bad allergies. So during allergy season, I would send him with a tea that was really good for his allergy, I would send one of my daughters and we have twin girls. And our son is younger, I would send one of my girls with one that was like really hydrating, because she’s very active in sport. And I would send the other one with something that’s common because she’s very animated and you know, it’s not always good to be animated all the time. You need to have that calm. And to be honest, our first team that I launched with, were inspired by our children’s, we have our comm tea. Which is for my daughter are focused for my son and also the Revive which is very hydrating and skin and nourishment and that’s for my other daughter. So that’s where our first three formula really came from.

Diana Fryc 19:47 

Oh my gosh. Well, family is really important to you. I can tell that and I know we talked about this. And I know one of the things that we talked about that you wanted to cover today is just kind of talking about the success of like what you consider success when balancing business with family. And when we’re looking at the modern culture, and I’m thinking specifically, Serena Williams just made a public announcement, where she just recently said, listen, I can’t be the best tennis player in the world and be a great mom, I have to choose. And this is the lot. And so she’s made a very specific choice in order to feel like she is doing the best that she can and what’s important to her. When we’re talking about you, you want to be 100% mom, you want to be 100% professional, you want to be 100% everything, right? It’s a it’s a little bit more of a subtle version of what I personally saw in the 90s, with a really severe shoulders and women having to behave very masculine in a very masculine workforce. And I’m curious, what are some of the tools that you use to be the best version of you in this moment of growing a new brand and children in the house?

Zahira Marmar 21:20 

Yeah, that’s a great question. Like, first of all, I like to start off by saying that I’m still not the best version of me that I can be.

Diana Fryc 21:28 

I bet you are.

Zahira Marmar 21:29

I know what it feels like, and I know that I’m driving towards it. But I’m not there yet. Every day making more strides. And for sure, people expect us to be like supermom, 100% mom, 100% of you this is savvy businesswoman, and just 100% that everything. And the truth of the matter is that, we can’t be like Serena Williams, that we can’t be that 100%? And is it fair to think that, to expect that of ourselves? I think not and one thing I would, I would say it’s not so much about work-life balance. For me, it’s more about work-life harmony. I would say, first of all, personally, when I take care of myself, and I take time to nourish my needs as Zahira, as an individual, Zahira a business woman, then I in turn, can have like a fuller cup to nourish my business. So it’s important for us to take care to make sure that you take care of yourself. And that’s something that again, I’m not there yet, but I’m definitely working towards that. And also making time with family sacred. And how I do that is by scheduling time. If it’s not scheduled, it’s not happening. We have so many things that are going on, like popcorn in our brains that you can miss very important stuff like basketball games, unless you have a daughter who’s pulling it because, excuse me, I have a game tomorrow. I have a game tonight. It’s at seven o’clock. But when there’s so much going on in your mind and your life, you really have to schedule the time. And so for me, it’s very important to schedule time for the family. So I would say like for us, we have family fun night. And the kids really, really look forward to that a lot. And just a note, I mean, it’s totally off. But how we did that is everyone wrote like about five activity that they’d like to do with the family on pieces of paper, we kind of tied it up and put it in a bucket about every Wednesday night, we shake it around and then someone goes in, they pick out and that’s what we do for that day. Everyone feels that they’re a part of it, there’s could be picked at any moment and that we really have fun as a family. So we do that one night, every week for family fun night. And then I also like to take Sundays for us as a family to just family time. I don’t want to work. Again, guilty as charged. Sometimes there’s that email sensitive, and then I make out sometimes movie I need to sneak out and do something, but it’s really about finding that harmony because if the children and the family and the hubby feels that they are loved, then it doesn’t need to be like 100, like 50/50. About finding that harmony between all the different parts. And another way, I guess the last way, I would say that I do that. Another tip is really to involve as much as possible family in work. And I have done like our first logo, and we’ve had a couple of iterations of our logo, but our first logo was designed by one of my daughters.

Diana Fryc 25:48 

Oh, you’re kidding. Awesome.

Zahira Marmar 25:52 

She’s totally like this design personality, she loves to design, she gives everyone kind of tips on what to wear and what not to wear. I see it’s a logo when she was like, no mom, that’s not going to work, if my friends are going to drink that, this is going to be a turn-off, this is what you need to do. She designed our first logo and we stayed a little bit true, I mean, it’s been iterated on. But she’s always been a part of that process. And I think when the family when the children are part of the process in business in any way, that they don’t see it as competing so much with your work, or this is our work, this is our family business. So that’s another way that I was able to do that.

Diana Fryc 26:52 

I’d love that. Zahira, I’d like to go back to the business of growing your business. I know, it’s still early in there probably been a lot of learnings in this stage of your career. So I wonder if there are any learning experiences mistakes, something that may have changed the trajectory of your career? And what could they possibly be? And how has it impacted how you do things today.

Zahira Marmar 27:17 

I mean, one of the learnings, very important learnings for me coming into beverage and I didn’t have the background in beverage formulation, or food science, I was just a mother who grew up in a certain way and wanted to continue this for their children. And I was very good at it. And then beyond that I want to share it with others. So kind of going into the industry kind of wide-eyed and naive, I learned a lot of things. I learned first that there’s a lot of compromise Diana that happens in our industry, for the sake of making money, as much money as possible. And for me, that was very foreign. For me, it’s all about the quality of ingredients and the process, the quality of the process. And I saw that there’s so many brands, that were kind of taking the compromise on the quality of their ingredients, and then they were really growing. And they’re able to take, like really have really great, it’s not quite the best. It’s subpar. So for me, that was really kind of serious learning very early on. And something that I felt like I had to like that wasn’t me, that wasn’t us. It wasn’t our brand. It wasn’t what something that I could do. I mean, anyone who knows me knows that I just happen to have very high-quality standards consumption of fur for our family. Teas were made primarily first for my children and then it grew into something that I wanted to share with the world. So again, anyone who knows me would know if I’m not going to feed it to my kids and my family. There’s no way that I’m putting it out. So that’s just like, standard wise. I really have some learnings around how my sense was a little different than that of so many of my peers in the industry. Like we only use organic and non GMO herbs we use in raw organic honey, things that are expensive? Expensive ingredients. Use any syrups or powders, it’s really herbs, dried herbs and water. And so kind of maintaining that, I got a lot of, like looks even of people who could have invested, they’re like, I don’t know how you’re going to do that with the margins, because those are expensive ingredients. And that’s just a hard way to do it, why not just get some powders and mix it in the water, and voila, there you go. So, that’s been quite a learning experience for me at this stage, that I’ve been able to, I think I’ve successfully able to get over that. I’m not lowering our standards of our brand to meet margins or of course, it has to be in order to be a viable product. You can’t lose but quality of ingredients and quality of process, always from it and foremost for our brand. I’ve lost some because of it, but it’s okay. Eventually we’ll get there where we need to be, things are really looking out because I think now people are really coming to value ingredient. Their body, they’re really coming to value process that it’s not, like they’re not putting highly processed foods in their bodies anymore. They’re really looking at ingredients.

Diana Fryc 31:46 

Yes. totally understood. And listen, the beverage industry is just a bit I call it Big Time Wrestling, like there’s people beating themselves up over margin all the time. And I’m always surprised when we work with a beverage brand, every once in a while we’ll find a beverage brand where we feel like the marketplace could tolerate a higher price point. And when we make the recommendation, of course, people who’ve run the numbers are like you’re insane, you’re insane. And you have to, the brand value requires a higher price point and we will raise the price on a product and the sales go up because now suddenly people go oh, option of quality products. Exactly. Exactly. So good on you. Keep to what you feel is right. I’m glad to hear that. Oh, what are you most proud of it at this time?

Zahira Marmar 32:46 

What I’m most proud of? Honestly, it’s my children for sure. I mean, like it with all seriousness, it’s all my children. It my biological children as well as this Tea Company, which is my baby, and how we’ve been able to have all of them support each other like our biggest ambassadors for Hrbvor because of our children taking our teas to school, there’s been a lot of one friend started uh, what’s that? Can I ask? And then another friend and another friend. And before you know it, like we have like orders that are coming in from all over. Families that their children told them you have to buy this. Not only because my friend, it’s her family business. But I really liked this. I really liked this and that Diana, I’ve got to tell you, it’s been insane to think that children are drinking herbal tea. I love it. Or can children are drinking herbal tea. All again because it tastes good. They don’t have to know or I mean they should but it’s not really important right now, it’s like amazingly healthy and it’s so good for you. It’s like water plus. But what I would say that’s one of the things I’m most proud of, that our children are our biggest ambassadors for our brand.

Diana Fryc 34:33 

Yeah, I’m glad to hear that children are interested in it because this sweet tea which is very popular across the United States is really based off of the black tea, brewing black tea. Just adding some sweet tea tends to be so sugar-filled, and mostly it’s because to offset the bitterness of the black tea. And so you have the herbal tea, like yours, that are naturally refreshing and don’t require all the sugar. Like, how great is that?

Zahira Marmar 35:10 

Exactly. So one of the things that I was super important to me and very core to our brand our users, we want to make it taste as good as possible, but we don’t want to compromise on the health benefits. So that means that it has to be a liver, it’s not going to be a sugary drink, but it’s going to be just enough sweets, that it kind of touches your taste was in the right way. So we’ve been able, that in itself took quite a lot of formulation back and forth. And again, like I tested it on my kids, I mean, one can say that, oh, it’s your kids, they’re going to say that it’s good regardless. I got to tell you, my kids are some of the most sophisticated palates and they are brutally honest. And that’s exactly what we needed to really formulate in the best way to them. And they know the taste of the now taste. What caters to their friends, that if it catered to them, and they liked it, if it was make it a little sweeter, a little less here, a little less bitter here and there, which took about a year or so in formulation, but we were able to get it right, all of us as a family. So that’s really great.

Diana Fryc 36:41 

Well, what’s next for Hrbvor? What do you have? Is there a trade show? Is there a new product or new platform?

Zahira Marmar 36:50 

Yeah, for sure. I guess for us is like me getting out there. And I got to thank my hobby, then for really finding this opportunity because I’m so like, head down in the work, I forget to raise up and say hi, or like, you’re here. I’m very like, behind the theme. So he was able to find this opportunity. It was such an amazing opportunity. It’s such an amazing resource for women. So that’s the first thing I just getting more out there. I’ve been starting to do more trade shows. And the next one that’s coming up is Expo East. Will be there for sure. So that’s really like getting the brand out now getting the business more visible. And really just scaling, scaling from boutique retailers. We’re in some amazing boutique retailers. But we want to scale now from boutique retailers to more change. So Jamie Taylor. So that’s definitely on the horizon. And also introducing our looseleaf tea line, which is new. And we’re just getting it out there. So that’s very, very exciting. And those are the things that are really on the immediate horizon for Hrbvor.

Diana Fryc 38:19 

I love it. Zahira, I have really enjoyed our time today and yesterday, two days in a row. Look at that. Okay, our time is almost up and I have a couple of questions I like to ask everybody before we wrap up, so I’ll ask you the first one. What trends in food and beverage well actually in our industry or not are you following and why?

Zahira Marmar 38:48

Trends. I tell you that the word trends, I have like a love hate relationship with it.

Diana Fryc 38:57

Yeah, I know.

Zahira Marmar 38:59

I would say one because you know you want to be with the times or have to be with the times or you’re going to be irrelevant in some ways because people like trends and they want to jump on whatever’s hot now. That being said, I try not to actively like follow trends. I love it when our products align with trends. I love it and when that happens and it’s happened quite a lot in our products since we started, I don’t know, if you’ve heard of high viscous, super like anti-oxidant great for your skin. Everyone is raving about high viscous. High viscous is in Islam, our revised formula. I grew up in high viscous and it was in our formula before it became a trend. The same with Moringa which is like a superfood. And tolsey, which is a adaptogen. All of these, like I learned after, adaptogen Tulsi. Well, great. So we fit into that trend, which is great. It’s great that we’re meeting. I do try not to like jump on bandwagons, because trends rise and trend fall, but we’re building something that’s going to be enduring regardless of trends.

Diana Fryc 40:34

Yes. Well, the hope is, is that the trend becomes mainstream. Right, that it’s right. And so to become mainstream, you need to start as a trend. So I always like to hear what people are keeping their eye on and checking out on that note.

Zahira Marmar 40:58 

They say TikTok and videos. Like, you need to do videos, if you’re gonna get out there, you need to do videos. And I hear that, and I mean, again, like anyone who knows me, like, that’s so not me. I’m like, head down. And so that’s one trend that I would say, I have to pick up, get more involved in like, you know, for the business to get the business out there. For sure. Just videos and really being authentic. I think being authentic in how you represent yourself and your individual format. For people are really it’s trending now to follow brands that are authentic. So that’s something that I’m definitely working on. We’re working on some videos, and getting out there and getting our brand out there with videos. But yeah, TikTok and Instagram video.

Diana Fryc 42:03 

There you go. Are there any other women leaders or rising stars out there that you would like to elevate or simply admire for the work that they’re doing right now?

Zahira Marmar 42:16 

Okay, I won’t, like mentioning the obvious, Oprah’s and Serena Williams. But there’s one who comes to mind immediately, her name is Ellen Marie Bennett. And she wrote a book called Dream First, Details Later, she is the founder of Headley and Bennett Paper, I don’t have you heard of them? I actually met her at a mixer. And she was like, honestly, she’s like, my lady crush. Like, oh my gosh, she is so like her personality. She’s just has an aura about her. That just kind of emanates. Like, you can do it. If you can dream it, you can do it. And I’ve done that. I mean, you should really look into her book Dream First, Details Later, she’s Latina. Powerhouse, and I’ve really been following her. And yeah, she’s really great.

Diana Fryc 43:24 

I love that, the title of that book to love it. Well, we have been talking with Zahira Marmar, founder and chief Brewer of Hrbvor. Zahira where can people learn more about you and your brand?

Zahira Marmar 43:41 

People can find Hrbvor at our website. It’s www.drinkhrbvor.com. We’re also on Instagram and Facebook at Hrbvor. And we’re also on LinkedIn at drinkhrbvor.com.

Diana Fryc 44:06

Awesome I love it. Thank you so much for your time, today Zahira. I’m so happy to have spent time with you and I look forward to seeing what’s next. And seeing you at Expo East. And I want to thank all of you listeners for your time today. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend. Otherwise, have a great rest of your day and we’ll catch you next time on the Gooder Podcast.

Outro 44:39

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