Diana Fryc:
Here’s a quick disclaimer. The views, statements, and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, The statements are not intended to be product claims or medical advice. Hi, Diana Fryc here. I am the host of the Gooder podcast where I talk with the powerhouse women in the food, beverage, and wellness categories about the business of consumer packaged goods, branding, and leadership. This episode is brought to you by Retail Voodoo. Retail Voodoo is a brand development firm providing strategic brand and design services for companies in food, wellness, and beverage industries. Our clients include Starbucks, Kind, REI, PepsiCo, HiKey, and many other market leaders. So if your goal is to crush your competition by driving growth and disrupting the marketplace with new and innovative ideas, give us a call and let’s talk. For more information, you can check us out at retail hyphenfoodu.com. Well, I’m very excited to chat with my guest today. Julie Gordon White is the founder and CEO of BossaBar’s menopause energy bars. We’re gonna talk a little bit about Minowell as well later today. Recently named Oprah Best. Oh, Oprah Daily’s best menopause product. Who advocates for women in all stages of the pause. Julie is also an award winning entrepreneur, best selling business author, and TEDx speaker. In 2020, Julie launched boss bars after struggling with the menopause. Julie spent 10 years in court sales and marketing before deciding to honor her entrepreneurial spirit when she founded blue key business brokerage mergers and acquisitions, easy for me to say. Since then, she’s gone on to author a best selling book called Exit 12 steps to sell your business for the price you deserve and along with Balsa Bars can be found in the speaking circuit. As a small business expert. Welcome, Julie.
Julie Gordon White:
Why? Thank you. That makes me like, oh, is it because I have all that experience?
Diana Fryc:
No. No. We’re not allowed to save that one.
Julie Gordon White:
Actually, yes. I’m just gonna own it, right? Yeah. Okay. I’m in the saddle. All good.
Diana Fryc:
There you go. There you go. It’s so funny. I was talking with my husband the other day, and We were commenting about how life expectancy is, that 90 is the new and that, like, our kids are gonna live over a hundred years old. So I’m in my early fifties, and I’m like, oh, man. I still have another 40 or 50 years to go. I better figure out what I wanna do when I grow up.
Julie Gordon White:
More of the same. You’re doing a great job. More steam and more fun. That’s what I think.
Diana Fryc:
That’s more fun. Right?
Julie Gordon White:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Diana Fryc:
Yes. Well, I just love meeting you at expo west this year. You were, I found you. And I I believe you had not just the bars, but you also had Meno well with you at the time. Is that right?
Julie Gordon White:
Yes. We actually debuted Menowell, which is a rebrand of Vossavars, which we can talk about. Yeah.
Diana Fryc:
Okay. Okay.
Julie Gordon White:
We, the boss of ours, was our MVP to really understand the market and what we wanted and didn’t want to hunt and all the good things. And so we landed on based on what we learned on Me Nowell, and so we debuted Menowell at expo, we moved it to retail because retail didn’t know about lots of hours. So
Diana Fryc:
Uh-huh. Okay. Well, so tell us How was the show? What was the response like?
Julie Gordon White:
It was, can you see my face? Like, I couldn’t believe the reaction that we got. So we had a booth and at the top, it just screamed mep pausing the protein bar, which is probably why you saw us.
Diana Fryc:
Yes.
Julie Gordon White:
You know, we’re so loud and proud about menopause. Our whole team is, you know, menopausal at some stage. We have very, very menopausal women all the way to post. Below. And so, you know, we just own it so proudly. We didn’t wanna just like, oh, menopause. You know, like, here we are. Yep. People were shocked that someone said, I didn’t even know there was another application for a bar. And, it was really exciting. The 1st day, to be honest, was very overwhelming. Very — Yep.
Diana Fryc:
—
Julie Gordon White:
We were in the back next to the ladies room.
Diana Fryc:
Right. Good. Actually, good placement.
Julie Gordon White:
Exactly. I’m not I wasn’t mad about that. It was just we it was like a crush of people and but, wow. You know, I hope there’s no fire here. We’re in big trouble because there’s no place to move. People were so interested in what we were doing, which was happening.
Diana Fryc:
Oh my gosh. I love love, love that. We’re, you know, I’ll have a couple of questions, but I always want to start at the very beginning. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about basa bars, Manuel, and what the brand stands for. What’s your mission?
Julie Gordon White:
Yeah. Well, you know, how food and things happen because I needed a solution for myself. I was 55. We are in the middle of the pandemic. And I’m eating every brownie and cookie and chips that I was making for my 2 man sized sons that had come home during the time. And, you know, they’re in their twenties, so they’re in there tall on 5 1, they’re 6 feet. Like, I shouldn’t be eating all the things they’re eating, but I was because my hormones were off the chart, you know, off the chart going that way and my sugar cravings were just crazy. So I gained £10. I really — Oh
Diana Fryc:
my gosh. —
Julie Gordon White:
so bad about myself, you know, being 51. There’s no room for that. So what am I gonna do? I need to make something that I can satisfy my own sugar cravings. Mhmm. But then also it started thinking, Well, how can I just feel better? Less hot flashes, more energy, all all the things, and that’s when I stumbled on Maka. Mock ups at Peruvian Ridge
Diana Fryc:
— Yes. —
Julie Gordon White:
and around forever has wonderful compounds that help balance blood sugar and hormone situations over time. If I wanted something fast, I would have just taken a pharmaceutical, but
Diana Fryc:
—
Julie Gordon White:
Right. — there’s a whole other conversation about menopause and pharmaceuticals and my mom was of the elk. No, no hormones. Don’t do it. Our family, not a good choice. So I just figured that out. So anyway, fast forward. We start shipping in April of 2021 after I just cobbled these things together in the kitchen for myself, and they were kind of bad in the beginning. I just, you know, what else do I need? A little cacao nibs. Let’s make them crunchy. Let’s do all these. My girlfriends like them. This would have been 9 2 companies as an entrepreneur in my girlfriend’s like, this is your 3rd company. Like, really? I’m like, yes. Like, Okay.
Diana Fryc:
Let’s do this thing. Let’s do it.
Julie Gordon White:
So that’s the genesis of the boss of our menopause like a boss. Because I was really signaling to myself.
Diana Fryc:
Mhmm.
Julie Gordon White:
Oh, Fred, you need to medicalize like a boss, not the way you’re doing it now, though.
Diana Fryc:
Yes. Right. And when we were growing up, menopause was you didn’t talk about it, which seems ridiculous, didn’t talk about it. And when you hit menopause, like, your life is over. Now granted people were only living until, like, their sixties or seventies on average. So we were already kinda tail we were already tailoring off. But this concept of just owning the boss part, like, we’re just hitting our stride at this point now.
Julie Gordon White:
Absolutely. We’ve got time in the saddle. As I said, you know, we’re more confident. We have more money in general unless you have kids in college, draining everything. I have one left. Like, come on. You can do it. Get out. You know? But, we are just out of, you know, if we’re healthy, especially we are at the best time of our life. And so it’s just a life stage, and we need to pull it out of the closet, and there’s nothing wrong with aging and the cool thing is that celebrities now, and we’re just let’s just face it. We are a celebrity culture. Yeah. Celebrities are talking about menopause, Oprah, Gwyneth Paltrow, Selma Hayek, Drew Veramar, on and on. It’s cool all of a sudden. It’s actually cool. Think the pandemic helped that. So I’m glad to be a part of it.
Diana Fryc:
Yeah. I think the pandemic strangely enough helped a lot of things. Kind of unpacked a lot of things because we didn’t have a lot of things to distract us. We were at home. Period. With ourselves. End of story. Right? And all of a sudden, you’re like, oh, I I’m not feeling great about this, that, or the other thing. And there’s nowhere to go to distract yourself. So, it’s kinda created a little bit of a mess. I think we’ve got a little bit of a mess from a mental health standpoint. And I’m not talking about people who have severe mental health issues. There’s varying levels of it, but kind of, there’s a lot of things that happen. I think men go through their own version of menopause as well. 100%.
Julie Gordon White:
They have hormones Of course, they do.
Diana Fryc:
Yeah. It’s
Julie Gordon White:
not talked about. You know, they express it in a different way than white women do.
Diana Fryc:
Yeah. And I think that what we’ve traditionally called, like, in the past, the midlife crisis is us just kinda grappling. This is me personally. I’m no doctor, but I think it’s us grappling with the changes in our bodies and the hormone fluctuations and what do I wanna be when I grow up? And all of that is what I call the great menopause. And we just have only been women who have been in the workforce in mass only since really the eighties. Yeah. And so for us, it feels like new, but it’s been there the whole time, I think.
Julie Gordon White:
It’s been there the whole time. It’s a new conversation, it’s an old new conversation. Yep. You know, if you ask our mothers, our mothers didn’t talk to us about it because they just sold you through it that it just wasn’t a part of the war to talk about Oh, like, they’re really hot today. You know, maybe you just see them taking off their jacket or sweater or whatever. Like, boom, that’s interesting. Yeah. Our generation, we’re willing to talk about everything. Yeah. So this is part of it. And menopause in the workplace is huge. The way menopause, you’re talking about mental health, you know, so brain fog in, you know, when you’re at work, you’re giving a presentation, all of a sudden, no words are gone.
Diana Fryc:
Yes.
Julie Gordon White:
I encourage women. You know, I used to be a business coach for 10 years. Just call it out. Like, oh, geez. You know, I just had, you know, a meta moment. Like, own it. Having a hot flash. Here comes my power surge. We don’t need to hide what we’re experiencing. Mhmm. Instead of just claiming it, and then you just empower the whole audience, including men. Men need to be a part of it. Every man knows a menopausal woman.
Diana Fryc:
Yeah. A mother, a sibling, a cousin, a friend, absolutely. A boss, an employee.
Julie Gordon White:
An employee. Exactly. Yeah. Every week. So
Diana Fryc:
— I and I think that The gen z, at least my kids age are are in the gen z What
Julie Gordon White:
is the age category of Gen Z?
Diana Fryc:
Gen Z is, like, 16 to mid twenties, this kind of age group that is open to the dialogue of mental health and well-being, and that sort of thing is open to hearing these conversations. So I think that’s helping the dialogue as well we’re not necessarily being met with resistance. I think younger millennials as well. We have a group of people that are no longer saying, you guys are crazy. We don’t wanna hear about it. It’s just becoming open and open and open.
Julie Gordon White:
It has been risky mental health, because kids really experienced it in a significant way.
Diana Fryc:
They had to live with it.
Julie Gordon White:
Right. You know, our kids were shut in. And so we’ve had to acknowledge it. And now there’s services, but yeah, so I would just throw menopause in there. That’s why women let their hair go silver, including me, you know, because they could do it underneath the cloak of darkness.
Diana Fryc:
You are so funny. —
Julie Gordon White:
house when you’re going through that really hard part and all of a sudden, like, oh, okay. I’m good at that.
Diana Fryc:
That’s so funny. I went in the opposite direction because all of a sudden, I went to see myself on screen all day long, and I went, oh, my goodness. I can’t do that. Color, makeup. I bought a bunch of jewelry. I have so many shades of lipstick. I can’t even tell you. I went the opposite direction.
Julie Gordon White:
You know, cosmetics, jewelry, everything from the waste tub. Basically, we spent all of our money on it. Right?
Diana Fryc:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now I wanna kinda go back to this concept of, kind of nutrition, and menopause. I mean, nutrition, they’re saying, I just heard this, I think the FDA just did a report that they said that people over the 60 over the age of sixty that were taking multivitamins that there was a better better cognition and better memory for those that were taking a daily multivitamin is like the 1st large official study that the government was overseeing. And of course, that all sorts of disclaimers and not enough research blah blah blah blah blah, but still going back to nutrition as this way of, helping us
Julie Gordon White:
Right.
Diana Fryc:
When you’re building this bar and you’re building all the products that are around it and the brand, what hurdles were you running into either by way of acceptance from consumers to product development, like talk a little bit about how those early days were going in that in the specific space you wanted to play in.
Julie Gordon White:
Yeah. That’s a great question. I saw that same article that you’re talking about. So we’re still in the early days. That’s what I will say. We’re still, you know, we’ve been shipping for 2 years, but in the middle of a pandemic. So we went all the supply chain woes out of stock. A flavor that our first flavor went south because we couldn’t get a specific ingredient that we have chosen for it. We went through all the things. So — All the things.
Diana Fryc:
—
Julie Gordon White:
I just wanna make sure we’re still we’re still early. Yeah. But the interesting part about this, so I have a clinical nutritionist on my team. So I I came up with this idea for my but I wanted to make sure it wasn’t doing anything, you know, out of boundary. Yeah. So we have a clinical nutritionist, and we have an OB GYN that specializes in hormones and meth. Laws. So they have to, like, if they they have to give the approval for everything. So the tricky part about a, first of all, plant based, so So Harvard study, you know, eating more plant based helps calm down symptoms in the
Diana Fryc:
streets
Julie Gordon White:
of menopause. It helps reduce hot flashes. Mhmm. Your body, your digestive system doesn’t have to work so hard to process, you know, when you’re processing plants and fruit, then you’re doing a ton of meat, let’s say. So the parties are already working, you know, hot and hard. So more plants just calms your body down a little
Diana Fryc:
a bit. Interesting.
Julie Gordon White:
We still need a lot of protein because as we age, we tend to lose our muscle mass, which is why 90% of women in the stages of menopause gain weight. £10 or more. So it’s important that we make sure we get protein. We can get it from plants. Yes. We have a lot of plants. We can get it from powders. We can get it from meat. So don’t get me wrong. I love a good hamburger and a steak, you know, but I’m not eating that everyday.
Diana Fryc:
Right.
Julie Gordon White:
So going through the process of finding ingredients that can support like maca, P protein. So we can still get our protein in but also the hard part about it, and we are just now building our own study for efficacy. Don’t come with a clinical trial.
Diana Fryc:
You know? That’s true.
Julie Gordon White:
That’s true. We are not, we’re still food. You know, we are not a supplement, but because we support the experience of menopause through Maka, then we tend to straddle this line. So we’re really trying to document. We know our women. We listen to our women. We know they say, feel so much better when I eat your bars. They’re only, you know, they’re not super sweet. Just lighten, at least with dates. No weird sugars or anything like that. I feel full because they have 29 or
Diana Fryc:
32%
Julie Gordon White:
of my daily fiber, but their calories are only 15160, and let’s just do so as women, we don’t wanna eat a big hunk and calorie thing. So our bars, I call them elegantly sized because that’s what we need. We need a small bar that fills us up. And that crushes the cravings. So we are going back now that we have a consumer base, and we are getting prepared for a study where we can document how the bars impacted your experience. We know, from hearing all the feedback, I read every single customer service email text.
Diana Fryc:
You do?
Julie Gordon White:
Take them all, Diana. Like, every single one I reply to every single one. As a founder, I wanna know what women are saying. You know, our bars are like a talking stick. Mhmm. You know, for this important conversation, women reach out, and they’re practically crying. I have so many women who come up to us at a trade show at expo, men almost in tears, some in tears, to be honest. Thank you for opening this conversation. For bringing it out of the closet. Thank you for helping my wife. It’s a big deal.
Diana Fryc:
And
Julie Gordon White:
It’s even bigger than a bar. So
Diana Fryc:
—
Julie Gordon White:
Yeah. — so I wanna have that relationship with our customers. And so now we’re going to start documenting their experience. So we can share that because there is that community. We’re a venture backed company, and there is that conversation. What is the efficacy? And you’re a planet? You know, we’re not pharmaceutical. Right. We’re gonna make sure that we have some real information about that. So Wow. It’s a long route to answer your question.
Diana Fryc:
No. I sometimes think that’s what that’s the path. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I am curious And I’m always curious on the plant base front because this is gonna sound a little crazy. We’ve been working to make space better. For a long time plant based. It’s the way my family works. We’re very heavily plant based, big into beans. Beans are our thing right now. Beans and lentils. Almost every day.
Julie Gordon White:
Protein there. Yes. Yes.
Diana Fryc:
Yes. But we, you know, I’ve got a teenage boy that that kid needs to eat animal protein. No joke if he just cannot. So I’m cure it will be curious to me as we continue to investigate this balance between getting the right kind of protein for a very athletic growing body, you know, for young men and women and and these young people that are growing up whose bodies are transforming and making sure that we get enough vegetables that we’re not doing this swing from, okay, whatever you want because your body’s like crazy and you need 6000 calories a day too. Now you have
Julie Gordon White:
to switch to an account with milk. Right?
Diana Fryc:
Right. Oh, you’ve been there. Yes.
Julie Gordon White:
I raced 2 of those. I know. I know they’re bottomless and, you know, give them, this is from the mom perspective. Right?
Diana Fryc:
Yeah.
Julie Gordon White:
All the things, all the vegetables, all the meat, they were bottomless. They’re so hungry. So specifically for women in midlife where we don’t need to eat.
Diana Fryc:
Right.
Julie Gordon White:
20s and thirties, even forties. Right? But, So, but yeah, those sixteen year old young men and women who are athletic or who moved their bodies a lot. Yes. They need a lot. They need a great balanced diet. I raised 2 sons that are extremely athletic, and you just can’t keep enough food in the house for those people.
Diana Fryc:
You can be right? I anyways, yes. Bottomless bottomless. They got a hole in their leg. I’m sure of it.
Julie Gordon White:
Right. It comes down. Just say it.
Diana Fryc:
I know it does eventually, but I guess it will turn into what I spend on groceries and will go into college college funds here soon enough.
Julie Gordon White:
Exactly. We should be there.
Diana Fryc:
Now talk a little bit about what is happening here? You’re you’re catching the eye of the media. You’re catching the eye of the operas of the world or the opera staff of the world . What do you think is going on in our culture, is it a trend, or is it new, or is it finally at last? What’s what’s happening in our world of media that has your product because there’s other there’s other products that are coming out there as well, but you seem to be the darling right now. What what is it about your what you’re doing that you feel is so attractive to everybody right now.
Julie Gordon White:
Well, thanks. I appreciate that. Yeah. We don’t have any or, you know, no paid PR. You know, as a startup, like, that’s a big investment.
Diana Fryc:
So — Yes. It is.
Julie Gordon White:
So we’ve been very fortunate. We were actually in the New York Times 2 days ago,
Diana Fryc:
the entire
Julie Gordon White:
site. Right? I think it’s that combination and celebrities, people that we love and care about and trust as a society as women like Oprah talking about it like Naomi Watts. And we’ve been fortunate enough to have a product that people like, and they wanna have it up their things and their events. And it’s creative and different. And, I think that’s why people, and it’s, yeah, I think it’s fun. It’s a lighthearted part of menopause. And for me, what was important, there’s a lot of information that is coming to the surface. And if anyone wants more, we have a ton of resources on earth.
Diana Fryc:
Oh, great.
Julie Gordon White:
At bossavares.com. Mhmm. Tons of resources. And you can even get you to find a doctor that specializes in menopause through our site. So but the idea is a lot of when I was building the brand the first time, I think you’ll appreciate this, Diana, I’m searching for images online before my if I didn’t have any. Right? So I’ve got it. Like, what are the coolest doc images I can find? And there weren’t any. It was cool. It was horrible. Like, everyone would look like, like, this was the worst time of her life or thirty years older or was wearing clothes that my eighty three year old mother would never even wear. Horrible. So I’m like, okay, then we just need women holding our bars. We need real customers, you know, UGC. We need the real stuff. I’d rather have that than some horrible image, and it just made everything that’s where the whole Metapods like a boss came in, just is all about empowerment, ownership, energy, and I think that’s part of why people are attracted to our brand because We are not about the woes of menopause, even though it is it can be super hard for women, super challenging, over 34 symptoms.
Diana Fryc:
Yes.
Julie Gordon White:
It’s still, like, the golden time of our life or, you know, the platinum time of our life. So that’s, I think, because we have that energy, it’s how I feel. It’s a founder. It’s our culture. Yeah. You know, menopause is badass. And so I have lots of attraction more than, like, so miserable all the time, even if you are.
Diana Fryc:
Yes. I’ll and I wanna validate something that you’re saying here. So I just completed a 2 year MBA program this last Saturday, like, literally this week. Thank you. Half the women in my cohort were fifty and over.
Julie Gordon White:
Half I believe it. And so what did you discover by that being in this group of fifty year olds? Like you’re saying, you know, who’s this is probably something I’ve always wanted to do. Didn’t have time to do it. It’s now my time to get it done. What was that experience?
Diana Fryc:
Yeah. It wasn’t, it was not something. Actually, none of us had ever thought we would get a masters. What it was was we had a feeling, you know, if you think of who we are in our fifties, we’re square in Gen X. And when we were in school in the eighties, women coming into the workforce, women who were in business were incredibly masculine. And there are some of us that did not wanna subscribe to that, you know, have to wear a suit with a big honking shoulder pads, and we had shortcuts We were very, you know, we were depicted as, women in business were depicted as incredibly intense and I think there were as a group of us that did not wanna subscribe to us. All of us came from kind of like softer spaces or more traditional marketing or nursing.
And I think a lot of us said we wanted this was something that we had only discovered within ourselves, that we wanted to see something new and find something new for ourselves, and we saw education as a way to get there. So we went through these executive MBA programs and really opened up our eyes to, seeing what business could be. I happen to go to a Jesuit university and all of the foundational teaching or all the teachings, whether it be MBA or undergrad, have a foundation of environmental and social justice. So not only were we in an MBA program, but it was, how do you build a business that takes care of the planet? How do you build a business and make, and just grow your business and have an impact where you’re not abusing your employees or you’re not, taking advantage of resources. It was such an amazing experience that it opened our eyes that business could legitimately be a force for good. We are B Corp. My —
Julie Gordon White:
You’re a B Corp, which is a huge statement that needs to be achieved. So
Diana Fryc:
Yes. But to see that universities are out there saying as leaders in business, this is now not an option this is the way it should be. That’s a big deal.
Julie Gordon White:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s really great. I love it. To me, that That’s and I have to have you, you know, I do it on Instagram every Tuesday, a show called mental lounge talks
Diana Fryc:
where
Julie Gordon White:
I interview women and experts and doctors, influencers, advocates about their experience and products and things. But I’d love to have come on
Diana Fryc:
— Oh gosh. —
Julie Gordon White:
about what it’s like to get, you know, your MBA and your fifties because I think that’s exactly why I do what I do. This is exactly why I love bars and nutrition. Yeah. Menopause, talking about it every day because it is so exciting and empowering to highlight women who are doing cool things in their fifties. It’s almost like it’s a reboot, a restart, but you’re bringing all the goodness with you. You don’t leave not one experience behind. You’re bringing it forward and just amplifying who you are. So I love it.
Diana Fryc:
But, yeah, my husband calls it a rebirth.
Julie Gordon White:
Yeah. So
Diana Fryc:
— Yes. Well, and so on that side, let’s go let’s go let’s go step back here back into what you are up to. When we talked about how you’re getting the attention of celebrities in the media, I have to because Oprah’s on my top 10. I have a little list over here of people that inspire me, Oprah of courses there. Oprah daily, They called you out. How did that happen and were you prepared for it?
Julie Gordon White:
You know, that saying about being in the right place at the right time, So here’s the true story. We debuted at Expo West here
Diana Fryc:
2023, 2022,
Julie Gordon White:
I was there supporting a girlfriend who has a menopause tea, a hot flash tea.
Diana Fryc:
Right. Yes.
Julie Gordon White:
In her booth. So I was just there getting a lay of the land before I spent my tons of money being there. Like, how does this thing work?
Diana Fryc:
Literally tons of money.
Julie Gordon White:
She steps out to go to present to a retailer. So I’m in the booth. Here comes a reporter for over daily. No. This is a true story. So wonderful. So I say, you know, she’s not here right now, but let me tell you all about her amazing product. I gave the whole spiel and pitch on her product. And then when I was finished, I said, and by the way, I also have a menopause brand. It’s a bar called Bossa Barge, would you? I’ll give you my car and a bar. No, actually, I didn’t have any bars. I didn’t have any bars because we were out of stock because we had that issue I was
Diana Fryc:
talking about. So I
Julie Gordon White:
have no bars. I gave her my card. That was it and told her. And then she asked me later on, you know, can you send me a bar? And I sent her one after that, and she asked for our logos. But, you know, you didn’t do anything about it. So all of a sudden, our director of gross says, Hey, we’re getting sales from this from over a URL, over daily URL. You would like no idea. Search, boss of ours, over daily, boom, top men best menopause products.
Diana Fryc:
Yes. I saw that. Yes.
Julie Gordon White:
Girlfriend’s product and our product were there. So that’s how it happened. Being in the right place, the right time, but it didn’t have to be perfect. I have no product with me at the moment, but I also saw the opportunity to shoot my shot. Do you know what I’m saying? So as women, we’re like, oh, I have to have everything so perfect all the time. When the opportunity presents itself, step in, it’s okay if it’s not perfect. It’s probably better if it’s organic anyway. And take a shot. And so I did, but I wasn’t attached. I wasn’t looking every day. I’ve had her ear her card, all the things. I wasn’t emailing her all the time. Hey. You know, maybe in this maybe I should have. I don’t know. But I was like, okay.
Produced by Heart Cast Media.
